Claudi Pérez, Madrid, 19 August 20244
Image: The High Representative for Foreign Policy of the European Union, Josep Borrell, at his home near Madrid // JAIME VILLANUEVA
Interview with EU High Representative Josep Borrell
Borrell calls the new financing model a ‘confederacy’. And he calls on Maduro to show the minutes and avoid repression.
A appears at the door of his house, a stone’s throw from El Escorial, with a copy of Las cuentas y los cuentos de la independencia, the book with which he dismantled the ‘Espanya ens roba’ of Mas, Junqueras, Puigdemont and company. ‘It’s as if nobody had read it’, he says by way of introduction. A few months away from retirement, the head of European diplomacy, Josep Borrell (La Pobla de Segur, 77 years old), retains a thick and convincing voice, which blends the accents of Europeanism and social democracy. And he is still in the mood for trouble. In an hour’s conversation – an interview that has been repeated every summer since he became High Representative – there is no way to put the world to rights, but Borrell leaves a flurry of headlines on the agreement between the Socialists and ERC to invest Salvador llla, and also on Ukraine, the Middle East, Venezuela, Europe and, of course, the Middle East. Venezuela, Europe and, finally, the world and its monarchies.
Question. In this book you discuss the thesis of Espanya ens roba (Spain steals from independence): that Catalonia suffers huge fiscal deficits. The PSC-ERC pact is along these lines, pointing to ‘sustained underfunding over time’. Do you agree?
Answer. The pact also says that excessive solidarity is imposed on Catalonia, which unfairly limits its public policies and its capacity for growth. Put less stridently, it is the thesis of the ‘fiscal plundering’ that Junqueras touted so much during the procés and which I have tried to counteract.
Q. Is the procés dead after the inducements, the amnesty and the investiture of Salvador Lila?
R. These measures have had a very positive pacifying effect in Catalonia. I do not believe that a significant part of Catalan society wants to go back to following the pied pipers who assured them that the EU would recognise unilateral independence. But with this agreement, the narrative of the procés and a paradigm shift in the financing system are assumed post mortem.
Q. Is there underfunding?
R. According to the latest settlement, there is no underfunding in relation to the other autonomous regions. Catalonia receives in proportion to its population and contributes according to its GDP. In the last 20 years it has been around the average; today it is at 101%. Murcia, Andalusia, Valencia and Castile-La Mancha are worse off. But the system can be improved, it needs to be better levelled out.
P. This agreement with ERC has made llla president, avoided a repeat election and forced Junts to change course.
R. Yes, and that is what it was all about. I have no idea about Junts’ new course: I’m more concerned about the course that Maduro will impose on Venezuela if he refuses to prove that he has won the elections and represses the opposition.
P. Sánchez and llla argue that the agreement is a federal leap.
R. It’s a leap towards the equal sovereignty of Catalonia. We continue to make structural changes to the state model depending on the electoral situation. This has been the case with some and with others. It is typical of federal systems to have federal taxes. Like personal income tax in the USA.
P. In Germany, there is a tax agency in each of the Länder. They all collect 100% of the taxes in their territories.
R. Yes, but they don’t keep the revenue. They pay it into the federal treasury and from there it is redistributed. In both Europe and the United States, federalism is a process of integration: federalism means recognising what is different but, above all, reinforcing what is common. There is no federation without the federal power being the holder of a significant part of public revenues.
P. Its defenders say the pact has loopholes. One: there doesn’t seem to be a majority to reform anything. Two: the amount of solidarity is decided by PSC and PSOE.
R. I don’t have much to say about majorities. On the degree of solidarity, the problem is not only quantitative: it is conceptual and operational. I was for many years Secretary of State for Finance and I know the importance of having the key to the till.
P. The PSOE has not made any pedagogy about this change. To what do you attribute the lack of explanations?
R. The fact that a community with 20% of Spain’s GDP enters into the system of the concert is an important structural change. Obviously the new system will produce a different result, but it is not yet possible to evaluate the consequences on the distribution of resources between the State and the autonomous regions. It will depend on how much the Generalitat demands to reduce its alleged fiscal deficit and how much additional resources are put on the table to improve the financing of the other communities. For me, this model is more confedera! than federal.
P. Catalonia dodged a bullet by avoiding a repeat election. France and the EU dodged the ultra-right’s bullet. Putin hasn’t won in Ukraine either, despite the apocalyptics. Is there too much intellectual glamour associated with pessimism? Is there one more bullet to dodge, that of Trump?
R. I consider myself neither an optimist nor a pessimist: I am an activist. I try to start from an objective analysis of reality to propose the best decisions from my responsibilities in Brussels. And yes, we have dodged a few bullets, but there are profound changes in world geopolitics. To face them, more European unity is essential.
P. That unity exists over Russia, but it is more diffuse in Israel.
R. And even over Ukraine it is cracking.
Q. Over Hungary?
R. Basically. But not only. Even so, we have been stepping up our aid to Kiev. We started with helmets and waistcoats, and now it’s F-16 fighter jets. Every time we have increased military aid we have assessed the risk of escalation: watch out, let’s see how Russia eats it, after all we are dealing with a nuclear power. This has resulted in delays that cost lives.
P. Klev has just attacked Russian territory. Does this change the nature of the conflict?
R. It is a severe blow to Putin’s narrative. The Ukrainian offensive in Kursk was a surprise. For everyone. They have broken the frontline where no one expected it; least of all the Russians. Kiev believes that we are ready to help it defend itself, but not to attack. That’s why they did it on their own.
Q. Does Ukraine do this with a view to future negotiations?
R. So far the war is a military failure on Russia’s part. Putln’s plans were for it to last a couple of weeks. I’ve seen rows of burnt-out Russian tanks five miles from the Rada, the parliament in Kiev. They came within half an hour of taking the capital. It’s as if in Madrid they had stayed on the Pont des Français. But they were turned back and now it is Ukraine that is gaining negotiating positions. Moscow and Kiev have one eye on the maps on the front line and the other on the US elections.
‘It’s the proper thing for federal systems to have federal taxes’.
‘Gaza is a horror that cannot be justified by the right to defence’.
Q. Why is the European response to Israel more fragmented?
R. For historical reasons, linked to the guilt complex of several European countries, not only Germany, about the Holocaust. For some states it is taboo to criticise and, even more so, to take action against Israel. With exceptions: Spain, Ireland, Belgium or Slovenia. Still, several European leaders have said that there are too many dead in Gaza. Israel was in a state of shock after the Hamas terrorist attacks, but one horror cannot justify another horror. And Gaza is a horror that cannot be justified by the right to self-defence.
P. The EU is calling for respect for international humanitarian law. Is this just a rhetorical position, without consequences?
R. Several partners have called for a review of Israel’s compliance with the Association Treaty. The President of the Commission left this request unanswered. I took it to the Foreign Affairs Council, but the states preferred to look the other way. With 40,000 dead, some are asking again. We shall see.
Q. What is the risk of a regional escalation?
R. High. Diplomatic efforts have been made to bring the parties together to negotiate and avoid an Iranian response. But statements by some members of the Netanyahu government, the most right-wing in history, in the hands of ultra-orcodox extremists, do not help.
Q. What can we expect from Democrat Kamala Harris?
R. A lot. She has taken stronger positions than Biden: she has also said that there are too many dead in Gaza. The Palestinian issue has a big impact on young Democrats. The US has put diplomatic pressure on Israel, but continues to supply arms. In Europe too, it is time to move from words to deeds. The European response has been lukewarm, lagging behind the US.
P. The Sahel looks like another theatre of war. Isn’t Europe forgetting a very unstable area?
R. Not to forget it, but we have lost our footing in the Sahel. The Tuareg have just inflicted a defeat on Russian militias in Mali; that area is a hornet’s nest. If we include Sudan. Ethiopia and the permeability of terrorism to the Gulf of Guinea. there is a band of instability from the Atlantic to the Red Sea. This impacts on migratory movements. Regulating migration is a challenge: we have to act on its root causes, but our demographic winter does not allow us to do without it.
Q. Isn’t that what the migration pact was made for?
R. I am afraid that the pact has the virtue of existing: it does not provide the right answers.
Q. How did Von der Leyen’s flirtations with ultras like Meloni end? Is there a good and a bad ultra-right?
R. He had them before the elections. The difference is not between good and bad but between those who sit or don’t sit in the European Council: Meloni sits; Le Pen does not. But as prime minister. Meloni has been constructive in the debates in the European institutions, with a clear support for Ukraine.
P. You mentioned the Venezuelan case earlier, do you see a negotiation there?
R. We continue to ask Maduro to present the electoral records that prove the results. It is up to the National Electoral Council to do that. But it is starting to be too late for that, the repression is increasing. Some Latin American countries have tried to mediate. They are talking about repeating the elections. We also have a problem of unity in the EU on this issue.
P. This lack of unity even exists among Spanish parties. And even among former socialist presidents.
R. In the European Parliament I have seen and suffered how Venezuela seems to be a question of Spanish domestic policy. The Spanish government has been firm in demanding verification of the election results.
P. Zapatero has not said a single word.
R. He was invited by Maduro to observe the electoral process. You would have to ask him.
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